Dungeon Master Inspiration
DMI is a podcast made to share the tricks of the trade of DMs with a wide range of experience levels, from fresh, new DMs to wisened masters of the position.
We focus on exploring topics within the world of DnD that consistently pose problems to DMs, such as developing characters, the use of monsters & NPCs, and combat. You'll hear from a variety of DMs speaking on a plethora of intriguing controversial issues in-depth.
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Dungeon Master Inspiration
The Art and Challenge of Incorporating Deities in Game Settings- Dungeons and Dragons
Embark on a journey with us into the mystical realms of gods and pantheons in gaming. Joined by our esteemed guest, Cameron, a D&D maestro with nine years of play to his name, we navigate the thrilling challenges of weaving divine entities into immersive game narratives. From the enigmatic AO, creator god of the Forgotten Realms universe, to the provocative concept of neutral observer versus active participant, we dig deep into the divine power dynamics that shape the game world.
In part two, we unpack the intriguing aspects of deities, their domains and alignments, as they contribute to the creation of captivating game worlds. We invite you to listen in as Cameron presents his unique view on lawful, good archdevils, the correlation of gods and pantheons to specific planes, and his aversion to assigning alignments to higher entities. It's a thought-stirring discussion on the challenge of role-playing a god, the significance of creating gods with specific domains, and how it all enriches the game narrative.
As we round off, we delve into the intriguing concept of belief being the source of power for deities, inspired by the D&D's Kua Toa, a creature capable of creating gods through worship. We explore how this idea can be extrapolated to other worlds and how players can use it to shape their characters and give them purpose. Cameron shares his personal experience of playing a cleric with the ambition to become a god of peace. We wrap up by emphasizing the gravity of respecting the power of gods and deities in campaigns. Join us for an enlightening conversation packed with insights and advice on incorporating gods into your game settings.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. If you are interested in seeing more content like this check out our YouTube! We also post weekly game articles on our Patreon and have an active Discord community.
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Yeah, so this is going to be episode three. We're going to be talking about gods and the different pantheons and how you can incorporate them into your game. Today, we're not really going to talk about building the pantheon. I think that's going to be a focus for another time, because I think we could have at least a one to two hour conversation about it, definitely. But I'm your host, white, and this is going to be our first time having a guest star. If you'd like to introduce yourself, Hi, I'm Cameron Perkins.
Speaker 2:Over the course of, I've played D&D for a little over nine years since I was 13. Yeah, actually before I was 13. I started shortly before I turned 13 and I just turned 21. So a little over nine years, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense, yeah that's how time works.
Speaker 2:I think so A little over nine years now, and I have run in that time, I'd say somewhere between 15 and 20 games.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's not bad.
Speaker 2:My longest running one is the first game I ever actually ran which is still running. Now we're approaching nine years on one on running game. Oh, it's level 13.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, how much XP have you been giving them?
Speaker 2:Don't do XP I do Okay.
Speaker 1:So you're not like torturing them and making them just sit there and talk to each other for seven hours.
Speaker 2:No, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:At least I'm not that player, I'm not the DM.
Speaker 1:I actually like the XP system a lot, so that's what I usually go with.
Speaker 2:It's not bad. It needs a rebalance. That's a topic for another episode. Very true.
Speaker 1:So we'll start off our kind of discussion today with a very fundamental idea of when you're talking about the Pantheon, and that comes down to whether you want to actually have your gods involved in the plot or whether you're kind of having them just as neutral observers, and I think both are pretty valid and I would say the only way to really run a game is to kind of have a little bit of both.
Speaker 2:I would say the level you're kind of you're right and I would say that it's kind of hard to argue with that opinion. I would add, on the level of involvement they have kind of depends on the exact story and campaign you're running. Because, for example, right now I'm running a campaign which is like sort of like a survival based sort of campaign, survival and you know, like for it foraging and like colony building, actually like city building. They're literally I have made a system for them to like build a city and they, gods, aren't really going to be that involved in that, obviously. But if you're running a campaign where it's like the world's at danger because some existential threat is happening, they're going to be a lot more so really.
Speaker 1:So I agree with your statement, but I think it kind of also depends on the individual God we're talking about. That's also true Because I think, I think a big part of it is going to be like your gods, like I really like how forgotten realms doesn't like a the creator of the universe. He could give a flying hell less what happens. Yeah, he does not care, he just is sitting back watching for entertainment purposes. The only time.
Speaker 2:The only time AO cares is when something happens that screws with the what he wants, which is honestly valid. But also he's kind of selfish because he at one point he decided hey, gods, all of you, you're not gods anymore. Set them down to the mortal plane. I think it's the times of trouble or whatever, which I real quick I love the fact In that in that, like times of trouble thing, the one God he didn't strip of his power was Helm, who was like the God of, like guardians and defenders, and the reason is because he put him at the door of heaven and said let nobody in, yeah, and then Mr tried to get in and he murders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then there's. Then there's your characters like um well, be a good one like Tiren. Tiren's pretty involved.
Speaker 2:Tiren likes to like be very hands on because he's trying to get a lot of like strength and battle and stuff.
Speaker 1:Right. So like Helm, you people like no, he's war and evil, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 2:Is he Hold on?
Speaker 1:Who's? Who's the one that's evil? I can't remember Evil and war. I can't remember. I thought it starts with a T. I can't. Yeah, there we go, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a greater God of war. He deals with honorable combat. Yeah, he's the God of honorable combat and battle.
Speaker 1:But he's a lot more involved because if you were to put on a spectacular battle, he will actually imbue you with power after sometimes.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's like that God, it makes sense for him to be very hands on in your story. I try to actually avoid those characters because I mean it's it's so much less fun to have to pretend to be a God versus a common person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you're, when you're, that is a whole. That's a thing that's actually a topic to talk about because, like the DM trying to trying to play a God is so it's hard to get into a mentality of a God because you have to think about it in a way of like this thing isn't human and that's not true. It's a human, it's a human, it's not human, it's not even human or even remotely close. This is a wildly supernatural entity that is just kind of like human ish or, like I say, human ish, mortal ish, because it is shaped through mortals, to varying degrees depending on the world, and kind of annoying to play a god.
Speaker 1:And that's why I kind of try to avoid it for my game is it's very much. I have not found an effective way to really kind of give off the presence that you need to for a god to the point where I can actually, like convince my players hey, this is a great like hire being and make it really immersive situation. It's a lot easier to be the king of the country as the DMM like speak as a king versus a god where it's like it's kind of challenging, especially with like. I love to say that we are super creative and we can be as creative as we want. But even between the Abrahamic religions and the outsourced religions, when gods give premonitions, they're usually depicted the same ways, to the point where it's very, very challenging to do much with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like it's. It's. I mean, it's the stereotype. It's even a d&d stereotype where it's like a God sends a dream, like it's cool. It's objectively pretty cool. It's kind of it's played out.
Speaker 1:It's done so much that it's kind of hard to do Well yeah, and like as a as a DM, it's trying to create something from scratch, for that is just so challenging that I I personally steer clear.
Speaker 2:I've always I I do use gods. I use gods. Okay, I use gods Only when the plot calls for it. A player does something that would get their attention, or a player's Whole character revolves around one, or like has the one that like incorporates into their story. I kind of play with like a minimize the interaction of gods as much as possible.
Speaker 1:The minimal number of gods you can get away with is the number you should use and and I think that's really true when you're talking about, like, how many should be affecting the party is as few as possible. That being said, I have a world where I'm doing completely custom lore that's built around the dragon gods Bahamutima. I, oh, who came before them, and I'm completely rewriting my own story and in that story I use Bahamutima a lot. That being said, the party interacting with them is going to be very Sparing because of the fact that in the world that I'm writing, they govern over Everything. They're not gonna have time to handle and talk to four to six mortals unless those mortals do something Absolutely insane or incredible.
Speaker 1:Or they're like actually actively helping them and they just say thank you and then they ignore them for the rest of existence, like yeah, it's gonna be a quick hi, here's your metal go away.
Speaker 2:To be fair, a gods metal is like hey, you're immortal now. Like that's. Gods are like that's very much, it's the epic boons system. We're like players hit level 20 and then you, as the are supposed to be like, hey, the rewards now If you fit level 20. Or like a god makes it so you don't age. Yeah, do that.
Speaker 1:I. I don't actually like that system very much at all. I. Not good, it's not very fun to play. I'm not.
Speaker 2:I have given out epic boons. What ever, I actually was a home.
Speaker 1:I rewrote epic boons completely past level 20. For me, it's like, once you're past level 20, we're just gonna run the game and I'm gonna give you XP and we're gonna create new fun things for you to be able to do. We're not gonna it's. It's not a great system for, in my opinion, but I Really don't. I Don't like the idea in D&D specifically, of every single God Speaking from this higher astral plane and they're speaking down. I don't really like that.
Speaker 2:I like the idea oh.
Speaker 2:You want to talk? Okay, sorry, yeah, I, you could probably see it through the video, but, like I, okay, there's a God in. Okay, I'm gonna bring up an entirely different system. There's a God in Pathfinder, like the default Pathfinder world I forget what it's called, where I Forget Like the dude's name. I can look him up if you want, but the whole deal with him is he's a God of like, like lock or something. Hold on, give me a, give me a second. Hold on, you got time? Hayden Kylian is One of the ascended those who achieved Godhood by passing test to the star stone. He's also known as the lucky drunk, drunken hero or the Accidental God.
Speaker 1:Okay, I like the term accidental God, that's a good one of freedom, ale, wine and bravery his whole deal.
Speaker 2:If he was a dude who was like an adventurer and like a really successful one, all this stuff. He was also a drunk and people really didn't like it. So they pushed him into this giant magic super maze that if you complete it. The myth of it is like if you complete the maze, you become a God. And he disappeared and everyone thought he was dead. And then he shows up and he's a God.
Speaker 2:Okay, I like it and he's literally in the Lord. Like I could read through his whole wiki page right now, but I read through it once with one of my buddies In the Lord. He's like one of the few gods who actually gives just shit yeah, personally about every single one of his worshipers, because he's like listen, dude, I was a human like 200 years ago.
Speaker 1:And I. I like those characters a lot better than the the upper the upper plane will call them. I don't like a oh, personally, I don't use him very often at all, but like I love the well. I was an adventurer, I hit level 20 and I slaughtered a dragon and bathed in its blood and then I stopped aging, that's just. I Don't. I don't know what to say about that. It's so much more immersive than the Well.
Speaker 2:I always that's. I love that because it's like not even just gods, because that's the thing is I. God for me is a loose term because I actually God can mean different entities in, at least in my opinion and like in my world, because there's like divine gods and then there's like elemental gods and then there's, you know, infernal gods, abyssal gods, etc. So like an arch, an archdevil is a infernal god, you know, etc. So all of them are like. None of them are better or worse, they're just different.
Speaker 1:Archdevil's to me and this is a hot take, I would say archdevil's and phalords, it kind of depends. But I would almost say that they're not deities and I don't classify them as deities. And the reason I don't do that is for my own sanity. I like having organization personally and it's a lot easier for me to have. I know they're all supposed to be evil, but I like the idea of having a lawful, good archdevil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's fun, and then you have, like, almost these different pantheons, and so to me I would say that you have these upper deities that created everything, and they live on the Astral plane and Governed from there Everybody else is attached to a plane. So if you're in the infernal plane, you're going to worship the archdevil's as your gods. Yeah, I think that's more interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like the what gods you, what gods matter to you, really depends who you are and where you live Like. They're like the elemental planes, have people living in them, can like in even in forgotten realms in my, in my homebrew world, maybe in yours and like even in forgotten realms, and like the Pathfinder stuff there's people living in like the plane of fire, which is just fire. There's people living in it in like cities and shit, and that's really cool and those people obviously would worship like an elemental god or like a god of fire more, because, of course, they do it's, it's really cool.
Speaker 2:I will say one thing that you mentioned which I think is kind of important for me to say, because it is a hot take I have I don't give higher entities Alignments, okay. I don't give gods, archdevil's, etc. I don't give them alignments. I never do, I don't like it. Why not? That's, it's okay.
Speaker 2:I'll use like, I'll use gods as an example because they're easier or kind of easier, and once you have that, you can kind of see how it'll extend off like take, for example, a God of peace. Okay, let's just say a god of peace. Okay, a god of peace. One obviously wants peace. Their domain is what they are, their power, and their domain is the essence of what type of entity they are. They are, in my opinion, equally as likely to, like you know, say like you know, forgive this criminal, like for their crimes, as they are to say this criminals, death will prevent, like, will prevent a war. So there is more peace from their death than there is that that they would get like a gods Reaction or a higher entities reaction in any situation depends on who they are like. If we're going forgotten realms, grats, grats, whatever the demon, the demon lord of like lust and stuff, lust and hedonism and etc.
Speaker 2:In any situation we'll always do the hedonistic option. Yeah, and that is the thing is like the hedonistic option might be, because if the hedonistic option might be Chaotic, evil and you know, probably a majority of the time is some sort of evil, I, but there also might be an argument to be made that like, sometimes who is to say that Grats doesn't do good things in excess? Because why not Like? That's the thing is Grats, hedonism isn't one thing, it's like excess in general. Essentially it's like living and sensation and all that like Making someone happy is a sensation because like you can feel that you can like feel like, oh, I made him happy. It's like, it's an emotion.
Speaker 2:All depends on, like the mood or like a god of war this is another example. I'd use it with a friend the other day ago a god of war, it's equally likely to one day were to continue as they are, to one day war to stop so that both sides can recover and start another war later. Yes, like a god of war might one day send, like you know, a prophecy or a vision or something for their clerics saying like the war's over, stop the war. Do everything you can to stop the war, because both sides are getting too devastated and that means I won't get another war.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want more wars, and I Would say that's a really good take. I I do assign alignment, but I assign alignment for a very different reason. So mine has to do with and, and, if you were to like, for example, for for people who are listening, if you check out our patreon, we went through and made an article completely on alignment and Giving better descriptions than the books, because the books descriptions I think everyone can agree on are terrible. We got a single sentence for every single one. So we went through and sat down as a group and made alignment descriptions and advice on running the alignment.
Speaker 1:And for me, alignments are based on intentions, not actions. So I will Apparently give all of my gods that I intend to use an alignment and then I actually sort my DM binder when I'm in my God's portion. I sort it by alignment and then I highlight the portion of the plane that they're on so that I can keep a better organizational method, because if I'm looking for a God to be Worshiped by this group of clerics, that is evil. I want to be able to say, okay, let's flip to the evil portion, let's look at chaotic, let's look at lawful and then I'm gonna. I'm gonna dig through and look through everybody and see what's gonna fit my narrative better. That's how I like to keep myself organized. So that's why I do attach that alignment, because inherently some gods you can have a God of war who is good because they're they are the the patron of Noble combat, and you can have a God that is the God of destruction and war. That is chaotic evil, and so I would say that it's. It helps me keep organized a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's fair. You can have gods that are different aspects of the same things. It's like, and that's the thing is like the more if you have a God who their entire portfolio is God of war, that in that is all of war, that is their one thing, that is they are encompassing war, good, bad, etc. But if you have a God who's like the God of war and honor, and then you that is like Obviously that God is going to want like on or war, and and then because that that's like such a specific thing, then you can have another God. It's like war and cowardice or something like that, like the more domains you give a God, the more specific their domain gets it's, I would say because it both gets more general and more specific, I think more specific domains have a greater place within the entirety of D&D, because we need to go back and build and it gives us this aspect as a DM, to role play when you have a specific God.
Speaker 1:If they are the God of honorable combat, they're gonna want to see one-on-one fights. They're gonna be more hands-on, they're gonna be more controlling, especially if they're stuck on the mortal realm or they're like a human that has been promoted or an elf that is been promoted to a God. They're going to want to go in and be like during these wars. They're gonna want to be a general on the front line and pretend to be a human and be like I want to see you for a duel and it's like. It's so much more fun and gives you more storytelling pull a.
Speaker 2:Pull a steel dragon and just a gun of honorable combat role playing as some random soldier. Yeah, I Love okay, totally up topic, steel dragons cosplaying as normal people. Amazing the idea of gods doing that, I love it.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, a God of agriculture who's just or God or goddess of agriculture who's just Odes a farm somewhere and then all of a sudden, after their appointed Godhood, the local land becomes incredibly Prosperous for no reason and they're just like chilling there, hiding their existence. I think that is so funny and adds a mystery session, a mystery part where they're gonna be like man. This area has really great crop growth, but it hasn't rained in four years.
Speaker 2:I wonder why that is did someone make it with a devil and then meanwhile old like Like old lady, just send on the sidelines, just sit there, they're going. None of them know that. I'm just the goddess of agriculture.
Speaker 1:And it works a lot better. I think that that works a lot better for a, for a DM perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah um, when you're doing, when you're doing gods, you kind of have to pick a lane, not a crook, not like a total lane, like for not, it doesn't have to be all encompassing, but for every single God you kind of have to pick are they more human or are they more inhuman? Because he got a pick one? Because you can't try, trying to do both, it's possible, it's not easy and you know you can. You kind of have to pick one, be like their main vibe, and then you can have moments where it shows other things, like, for example, my home world.
Speaker 2:I like the idea of like, like Original gods and then like later gods that popped up so I separate it into primordial and primordial are like gods that Just existed, like they are the gods from the creation myth. They are the gods, they're like the AO, they are the, the IO or whatever. The big dragon God is that in your world. They are those, they are those people and those ones I make Auditally inhuman, like they might. They might, if there's some reason, one of them would pay attention to you, you know, manifests like an avatar and speak to you, but the whole time they do. I do my very best to give an undertone vibe of this is a very strange Thing talking to you. Yeah, this is something that you reasonably shouldn't be talking to, because if you knew in any small portion Anything about the true nature of this being, you would be immediately insane. Yeah, I like eldritch horror vibes and I do that, but then for like smaller gods, like like smaller gods, I make them pretty human, like cuz I Make them.
Speaker 2:Actually, I won't say that I make them as human as their domain is Okay, because that is that is something that is also should be said is like how human a god is really should depend on their like, what they are God of, like a God of love deeply like, deeply mortal, like in nature. I Would?
Speaker 1:I would disagree. Actually, I would say Because, for me, unless you're like the God of some Incredibly inhuman thing like if you're the God of, if you're a God of nature and specifically of a specific area, you're gonna be incredibly human. You can be incredibly human and and like even even things that are very like. You can become the God of fishing by being a fisherman your whole life and Becoming a like. There are ways to do it where I would say, the domain, unless you're like the God of suffering.
Speaker 2:What about? Here's something I see. What about God, people, gods who are like the God of storms, like the God of a natural phenomenon that is ancient and deeply like Disconnected?
Speaker 1:so for me there's. If I was to be writing a, a here, I'm gonna use the. I'm gonna use a different example than storm Mm-hmm, I'm gonna use time, okay, this time is a very important one.
Speaker 2:I just finished making the God of time for my homebrew world.
Speaker 1:So in my, in my homebrews, I usually run multiple gods of time, and what's important to me about it is when I'm writing a God of time it depends on how I'm using them, which route I take either a they have always been, and they're a part of this Kind of council that keeps everything. Think have you seen the show Loki? Think you kind of like the the time syndicate, whatever they call it?
Speaker 2:TV a.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, I'm very authority yeah or the or the other option is a level 20 Chrono man, sir Wizard, who is enlightened and becomes a God. That character is gonna be incredibly human, even though they control literally nature itself, because they were human and they. You don't fully get warped when you become a God unless you've existed for Millennials and really.
Speaker 2:I Play with that. Okay, this is a fun thing. One of my okay, my home game is still going on, but we've reached the point in the campaign we can kind of see the end coming, and so it's kind of gone to a point where, like all the players have already written for me, they're like character epilogues. None of those really matter. It's over one which is one of the characters, were Coney, where her whole deal is that after she, after the campaign dropped up, they defeat the big bad evil guy, etc. They, she goes off and starts like an organization whose whole deal is like help, like kind of helping people, kind of it's more like, you know, like Bringing her idea of justice. She essentially becomes like the founder of like a night order. Okay, and part of what I've discussed with her is the epilogue is that after her character dies, it's sort of like those ideas carry on and eventually, posthumously, her character ascends to Godhood because those ideas take root as a religious ideology.
Speaker 1:Okay, I, I don't mind it. I, I don't mind that, take I just, for me it's. It's rewarding when you see a character fully ascend to God as an epilogue, especially if you hit level 20, and I would say, especially for casters, that's very important. I think that's very crucial.
Speaker 2:I don't limit it to just casters.
Speaker 2:But yeah, she, she is going, she is a god. I have the campaign that I'm running. Come in, that I'm running right now. That's not my home one. It takes place in the future of that world where she it's it past the point where she has become a god. Mm-hmm, she has been a god in lore for maybe 20 years. Back, that thing. That's. The thing is like if someone were to speak to her. It's literally just her character With god powers, because it has been 20 years. She is just her with some god powers, and so it's like her character is a barbarian, barbarian, was 16 intelligence because she rolled really high on stats, but her character is just a barbarian who eventually becomes a god because, like religious ideology and all that stuff, the it's like if someone were to talk to her, she would be like very little social graces and it would just be like look, just do what I tell you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think for me, with this whole ideology behind it, I would say it's very important to know what kind of god you're talking to. Are you talking to something that is ancient or are you talking to something that is relatively young? Yeah, and when you're creating gods, I like it when characters become gods at the epilogue. I tend to avoid doing it with holy casters, because they're worshiping something else. If you are worshiping, for example, a warlock, worshiping a patron, you're not going to ascend to god.
Speaker 2:No, you're not. But, you might have to say whatever that entity makes you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you might become an eldritch whore for the rest of existence, but you're not going to become this beautiful eternal being. That's just out of the cards for you. But if you're a sorcerer that hits level 20 and has wish, you're probably going to end up as a deity of some kind.
Speaker 2:Wish can't maybe a hot take? Wish can't make someone a deity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it can't, but like it can grant you a presence with a deity you can wish to speak to, a god you can wish to talk to a deity and if you do that, the chance that they book, especially a greater deity. If you've been following them, there's a chance they might give you lesser godhood and then I think it would almost be really funny that you become the gods assistant for eternity.
Speaker 2:That's something that's fun to mention, because I love the idea of gods granting Okay, so Rikoni she back to her. She becomes the goddess of recompense and reconciliation. So essentially it's like like like recompense and reconciliation, it's like forgiveness kind of, and you know getting what you deserve. So the joke is that she's a god of karma. She is in the like world lore, a lesser deity who serves under the god of the god of law and order or the god of law, and so it's like a weird thing where like gods can have lesser gods that are like sub parts of there and they are like the boss of that god. Okay, it's when I'm 40 years badly.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I have a question for you, and this has to do with how I make gods. I make gods on a character sheet because I find that incredibly enjoyable.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:But what I do and this is this is similar to how I do the big bats for my campaigns. Big bats I do for my campaigns I do a little differently than I do gods. So when I do a big bat for my campaign, I will take three to four d12s and roll rather than d6s, because it gives me the chance to have much higher stats and much lower stats. But with a god I'll roll like 66s and I'll drop the lowest one or two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just I don't stat deities, okay, or their entities at all. I just don't if you, if you, if you ever play in a game, because we do know each other, if you ever play in a game with me and there is any sort of like archdevil, feylord or etc. Just a tip. I've probably not stat it because the answer to can you fight it is probably no.
Speaker 1:See, for me, the answer is always yes. Can you fight it? Go ahead.
Speaker 2:The answer actually yeah, you're right? The answer is the answer to can you fight? It is yes. The answer to will you win is no.
Speaker 1:For me it's like can I fight it? Yes, awesome. So this character, I behind the DM screen, they're a paladin. They smite you for 49 damage. What the fuck is that thing? That's all I did to like to run it, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like I I once had a player smack the God of Chaos in my home world in one of the campaigns that I ran. That was like kind of like higher scale yeah, and the God of Chaos like had an avatar and they just slap across the face and the thing is I had to make a quick moment decision.
Speaker 1:This is a deity.
Speaker 2:Does that deity care? Because they had a negative strength modifier so it would do one damage maximum. But it's an avatar, so it's immune to non-magic damage and it's an, and it was, it was. I forget what class they were, but they weren't a monk, so a slap is not magical, so it didn't do anything and so I just had it. I just had the God of Chaos be like why, why, what did you do? They just laughed and were like that's adorable. I don't know why you're doing that, though it's. It's kind of I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1:So I lost it. There's a reason that I fully fill out a character sheet for deities and that reason is if a player decides they want to lie to a God, they know they do. But it depends on what kind of deity it is. That's awesome. If it's AO, I'm just going to be like no, ao is the creator of all things, I don't bother to stat him. But if it's like, for example, the guy from the Forgotten Realms, I'm going to stat him out. And I like to do it as a character sheet because for me it gives me so many more modifiers that I can actually physically look at and pull up quick time and not have to do mental math. That it's a lot easier for me.
Speaker 1:And if you're going to try to lie to a God, I think me ruling 66s and dropping the lowest one too is a pretty good way to bump those stats quite a bit where it's going to be pretty hard to lie to them. And obviously it depends on age. But I just add de-6s for age relative to what I think is acceptable versus my final bosses where I'll literally roll 40, 12s and make it like a character, because I personally have mostly played casters in my D&D career. I've played a cleric. I've played way too many wizards, way too many sorcerers and a couple warlocks. I'm going to make that a magic caster like a lich. I'm going to roll 3d12s and you best believe if I roll 3d12s, that's all going in my magic staff and you're not going to get me.
Speaker 2:Intelligence of 36 is insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's like the final bosses usually for me.
Speaker 2:That is. I mean to be fair, that's fair. A BBG should be kind of ridiculous Well, kind of depending on the campaign. But the yeah, I don't stat gods just because I've had players before. I have had player horror stories before, and one of the main reasons I don't stat gods is because I've had players who have mid maxed before and they deal 300 damage in a turn and I can kill a god and I was like if I stat a god, someone's going to do some bullshit.
Speaker 1:See, for me I encourage it because you best hit it. It's that mentality of like, if you're going to take a swing, it better be a good one, because if it's not a good one, you're done.
Speaker 2:To be fair, I also run what is a fairly dark world. Yeah, that's fair, because everything's kind of shitty and everyone's kind of dead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, I just I like using them for combat. I think gods are. I think even having an evil god is like the final big bad for a campaign can be a lot of fun. And I'm not going to lie to you. For me, the final fight everyone is so freaked out about having these gorgeous Apple Oaks for the characters I don't mind. Tpking is my last thing. If you go to kill this big bad, god, who's corrupting the world, and he slaughters the whole party and the world falls into ruin, that's just as satisfying of an end to me as a happy one, and that's just a personal preference, I would say, and this kind of feels like it's getting on like plot beats which might be a topic for another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to go through the plot later but, like I say, it depends on the players whether or not that is a satisfying ending because I, as a DM and satisfied with whatever happens. If my player is TPK, great, I'm happy, whatever we move on.
Speaker 2:I have a million other campaign ideas but like it's up to that, like if the player doesn't want their character to die, I'll find a way to bring the character back If a player, as long as it's remotely possible, if a player or like they're not asking me anything absurd if a player like if we got to the final fight of the campaign and they all died, and then, like you know, they like they all died and all the care, all the players were like well, we tried and they were all cool with it, I would be like cool, and then we would start a new campaign, move on. I'd probably you know I wouldn't retcon the whole campaign, but I'd probably like retcon the ending or something. If I wanted to run in the same world again. Or I'd just say new timeline. None of it ever happened, you know whatever, but that's if I wanted to run in the same world.
Speaker 1:I am I am diabolical. I'm very diabolical because my last campaign where I actually had the party get TPK.
Speaker 2:Okay, on purpose or did it just happen?
Speaker 1:At the end they just couldn't beat the final boss. Okay, we resurrected and we started playing. The final boss resurrected them because he was a God and they started playing from the evil side. That's fun which was actually a lot of fun, and my characters loved it because all of these characters they had grown bonds with in the cities and stuff we're now fighting against them.
Speaker 2:See, that's fun. That's the kind of thing of like I would talk about players and that might be an idea I would give them is like this is a lich. There's like a 60% chance he's going to bring it all back to life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's just go back to war Both. This time we're going to war with the mortals, and then you got a nice evil campaign. That feels very satisfying.
Speaker 2:And then here's the thing maybe all of them then lose against the other good guys, and then the world ends up like being like saved in the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who knows, or they break the magic and the party gets to turn on the lich when he thinks they're on their side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's the kind of thing like you kind of If they died and all the players were like, cool, let's move on, I would just end their move on. But like, if they want to keep going with these characters and stuff, we'll find a way, we'll find it can be a lot of fun, especially with, especially when you have like gods and shit, like, okay, if you ever speak to any of my players, tell them none of this. Okay, and if any of my players that are my current campaign, the colony one, or listen ever listen to this, click off, jump forward, like to jump forward like three minutes. Um, so, one of the players it hasn't happened yet, but they have discussed with me pre, like pre the game that they want their character to have a religious awakening. Okay, what so they're. They want their character to take levels and cleric after being exposed to a certain religion that currently Her, they and I are building together.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So there I'm letting them partake in the whole building the god like they're. They're coming up, they're helping build their own god, they're helping build their own religion, etc. And because the pantheon's unfinished, so I'm pretty cool with that, with that. So If, say, like got to the very final battle and, like you know, a whole party dies, if that character were to Like be, if that character might be the way like if everyone wanted to keep going, I like, like rat, like fixed that to happen. Yeah, because they are, they are going to at least.
Speaker 2:So I like to discuss like long-term ideas with players really early, um, and what I discussed with them is like becoming like what's interesting about like a saint of this religion, okay, and so that would be like a really interesting like plot point is like that's part of their saint myth, is like they died and then Crawled back from hell or something like that, like Like the pit, because their god is going to be a brutal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is going to be, their god is going to be a god. That is like rather brutal and unforgiving. So it would be the kind of thing of like all the players die and then in the like afterlife that that player like begs their god for a chance and I we have like a whole, like couple sessions where the gods like, all right, you want me to bring you back to life, I will prove you're worth it. And Then we have whole couple sessions were literally they're just like fighting and like doing trials or some shit to prove to this God that they deserve to come back to life. And then if they complete it and honestly I would make it so that Not the whole party could complete it, like if, if there's seven people in that game I'm running a campaign, seven people if five of them pass the trials and two don't, to Sorry.
Speaker 2:The god is not gonna give you a second chance, but they could be resurrected somewhere else, if the lord gets one of the party members can do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're. As long as look, as long as someone gets back from the dead, as long as you got 500 gold pieces in your pocket, anything is possible.
Speaker 2:I swear and then like they all wake up and it's been like two seconds since they died, like that sort of a thing I I Really useful, but they're also really annoying sometimes, which is a really weird dichotomy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's very important to plan them and execute properly, without overuse, don't over, don't overuse them. And I, personally, I personally don't like Some of forgotten realms. I really just like the concept that, if enough people worship one thing, it becomes a god where, if you step on this specific frog creature I don't remember what it is, yep and it creates a god of your foot. I don't like that. I don't like it at all.
Speaker 2:Kua Toa that's the whole thing is in forgotten realms. The belief of every creature has power and can create deities. Kua Toa have more power Per Kua Toa than per average mortal. So it takes far less Kua Toa to make a god than it does other worlds.
Speaker 2:Yep which is interesting because it can lead to some really weird things, because Kua Toa are also extremely religious and Dumb and they want they want a god to worship. They, if you've played Balder, gets Baldur's Gate 3. There is a Kua Toa. This is a spoiler. Anyone who hasn't played Baldur's Gate 3, stop listening. Jump forward like five minutes the, not five minutes like two, but the. There's a Kua Toa town in that game. Have you found it? I haven't played Baldur's Gate at all. Okay, this is do you want me to?
Speaker 1:I don't mind. I don't intend to play the game, oh, okay. I know not that I don't enjoy the game. It's. I want to run D&D and I don't have time to run the campaigns. I want to run and play Baldur's Gate. I will get sucked in, so I'm I'm gonna keep my head forward on D&D Until the time where I have more free time, and then I'll do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fair, the. So there's a Kua Toa town in there where they are worshiping, but a Bohol or something like that. It's something positive, weird, but it's supposed to be like a ripoff of ball. Who is the forgotten realms? God of murder, murder and strife? I think, yeah, that sounds right to me.
Speaker 2:And so this god, who's like a Whatever with their worshiping, who's just like this weird, like little blood creature, turns out to just be a red cap, which is a fey who convinced a bunch of Kua Toa they were a god. And so this, this red cap because that's the thing is Kua Toa make gods, don't make like real. Yeah, because their gods Don't become that's the difference is like mortals. It takes a lot more of them to make a god, and over a long period of time, but they make like a real. Quote unquote god Kua Toa. If they stop believing, they're gone, fizzles into nothing. They, they need the Kua Toa to keep believing or else they literally just disappear. Yeah, unless they were something before, unless they were something alive before, and then they just go back to what they were.
Speaker 2:And so you, playing the game, can make a check to realize this is just a fey who is deceiving a bunch of Kua Toa and then, if you do that, you can just Murder it. It is much tougher than the average red cap, though, because it has, because it has a power buff from a from a village of Kua Toa, and so it's a really cool thing where, like, you get to see as some small aspect of like how gods get made and forgotten. Else and in a lot of other, a lot of other worlds use the same system of like belief makes a god. I even use it Because that's kind of you know, it's easy, it's also makes sense.
Speaker 1:I use a modified version, and the reason that I use a modified version Is because I don't like this concept that you poof into being All of a sudden when you have a hundred people believing in you. You have to be a living thing beforehand. You have to be a living thing beforehand. That is my rule with young gods. Is I? You had to have had a life before. You may not remember that life, but you had a life, because then all of the legendary heroes in your world, there's a reason to be a legendary hero. You could die and go to the quote unquote heaven, or you could become an immortal god, like there is then. That gives more power for the players, for your NPCs to strive for. It gives them purpose, and that's my belief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I it's. That's very true because, like, if players know that becoming a god is a possible epilogue, a lot of players will be like, oh, that sounds difficult, there's they. But like, there's the occasional player who hears that and goes how? And you're like today's the day, and then there's two versions of that player. There's the power gamer who's hoping you'll let them become a god in game and then use those powers in game which no, never, uh. Or there's like the story, like the role player, story player who wants to literally build a character with the whole purpose of that character Is to eventually end up a god in, like the world war, which is raconi Um.
Speaker 1:I actually believe it or not, that's the cleric that I played was their entire goal was to become a god and a lawful good god of peace and tranquility, and they were doing it through raising a zombie army to stomp out all wars.
Speaker 2:That's Not a lawful good yeah don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:Don't worry about it. It was a interesting character to play.
Speaker 2:That is a person with a very demented sense of good.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was, and that was the whole point was.
Speaker 2:That person is going to end up being something that is very much not a god.
Speaker 1:That is good um their goal was to create world peace and become a god of peace through murder, yeah, basically through, through using corpses to stop all war without having death.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:I mean it was an interesting character, it was a fun one to play. Yeah, that is.
Speaker 2:I Don't know what to say about that. Yeah, interesting character I have. Here's the thing you Talking about the characters you've played makes me a little bit angry, because I have ever, only ever played two characters.
Speaker 2:Because, I've only ever played in place. I am a forever DM and I stuck as that. We fair. I love D, I love DMing. I have control issues, but the Both times I've been a player, might the DM has at some point told me Stop telling players rules when they ask what the rule is before I can tell them the rule I? I I can't really turn it off. I'm one of those people who I can't really turn it off, so I'm better being a deal.
Speaker 1:The for me. I've played both. I I am mostly a DM. I've played more. I've DMed more games than I've played Mm-hmm, but the games I've played because I have DMed so much. If I'm gonna play a game, I'm not gonna do your normal Joe Schmoe, I'm gonna mess with your head, I'm gonna play that character that you're sitting there and you're like. For that one, my whole goal was to make the rest of the party question. Is this really good?
Speaker 2:anymore. Yeah, I played, and actually this does connect to the God topic. Yeah, I play. The both characters I've ever played have both been very religious. Really, the first character ever played was a paladin. He was a paladin of helm in the forgotten realms. Actually, which is helm is my favorite God In the forgotten realms Hell. To be fair, it's kind of easy for home to be the favorite God because most forgotten realm gods are bad people. Looks at misstra actively telling someone to commit suicide in Baldur's Gate 3. The yeah, misstra's are bad and Deserves to be smited by helm. Hot take, but was that a cough or you telling me to like?
Speaker 1:that was me coughing, that was.
Speaker 2:That was like a.
Speaker 2:No, you're okay, cool, the All right. So that game actually had interesting thing because I had to leave that campaign. Actually, that campaign started to fall apart because of some interpersonal issues, but the DM told me at one point what his plans for the character was. Because the whole thing was it was a, an ASMR paladin, and named Samuel Mundus, which literally translates to like Samuel, normal. Like Mundus is like Latin or something for like normal or mundane, and Apparently I didn't know this but in like forgotten. This is something that you will actually find interesting because it connects back to like you're talking about, like a, a document, like the domain of a God shapes who they are and also, like God should be human. So I Didn't know this.
Speaker 2:Apparently in some Forgotten ones lore or something, helm was in at one point in love with the goddess of practicality, like goddess of like pragmatism or something. And this is what this is what I was told. This might have been the lore my DM made up and the so ASMR, all are descended from some celestial and the running. What he told me is that eventually, if that campaign I kept going on, it would have come out that the reason because there was a running joke, because Samuel always rolled super high. Like always I rolled like below a 10, like twice in, like a campaign. We had like 30 sessions, um, but the it became a running joke. At one point. The DM gave me his dice and said roll these. And I rolled two natural 20s in a row and he just went. It's just, it's just luck.
Speaker 1:But you were bestowed by the gods.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that became the running joke. Is that I'm the helm? Is that Samuel was Helm's favorite and the DM actually made it Like more yeah, that Samuel, just helm loves him. I love that and the reason that he told me he was gonna end up coming out was because helm was in love with this like goddess who died, mm-hmm, and Samuel was his, like ASMR, celestial, like ancestry. Was that goddess and he was one of. He was one of her only living descendants with like a spark of celestial power and he was also a. He was also Entirely by cosmic chance or some twist of the fates or AO or some bullshit a Paladin of hell. So helm not only had power over him as a pellet, as a paladin and Permission as a god to protect him as his paladin, but also a reason to like him that much because he was one of the last descendants of helm's dead, like girlfriend, essentially yeah.
Speaker 2:I like that, which is like it's kind of inhuman but it's also kind of very human and it's I Likeed it.
Speaker 1:I like it too. It's an interesting way to use a god. Well, I will say that is where I'm gonna cut it, because of the fact that we basically started going off on tangents, because we've covered most of the things that we wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:Um, so thank you everyone who listened. Um, if you're interested, check out any of the links below for more content. And other than that, I hope you all have a great day. Yeah, hi everyone, bob.